Editorial Conversation: Chapter 9, Section 3 - Molds, Guides, and Hands

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Hello everyone, I'm Jason Cohen, the author of An Introduction to the Art and Science of Chinese Tea Ceremony. Today we're discussing Book 2, Chapter 9, Section 3, Molds, Guides, and Hands. Here to talk about this chapter is our editorial team, Patrick Penny,

[00:00:20] Pat Penny: Hey, hey!

[00:00:21] Jason Cohen: Zongjun Li,

[00:00:22] Zongjun Li: Da jia hao.

[00:00:23] Jason Cohen: and Emily Huang.

[00:00:25] Emily Huang: Hello!

[00:00:27] Jason Cohen: I'll preface this editorial conversation with a note that this chapter generated far more discussion than any other section in Book 2, so it should be an interesting listen. Let's start with two factual questions to help ground this conversation for listeners. First, Pat, what is a shape guide?

[00:00:46] Pat Penny: A shape guide is any, usually 3D, mold. It can be in any type of shape or form. But usually in the context of Yixing, it'll be some kind of semi globular form, which can be used by the artisan to help create consistent shapes in a certain size.

[00:01:02] Jason Cohen: You use the term mold but you don't mean slurry mold or a press mold.

You mean something different?

[00:01:10] Pat Penny: Yeah, so this is just some kind of three dimensional shape, which yixing material can be pressed into. It won't be filled into in a liquid form, but in a solid form, pressed into to take on the shape of the mold.

[00:01:23] Jason Cohen: Yeah, this took me a while to understand when viewing this, but it's some type of 3D shape that has a curve or has a bend that you use to match the clay to. So, for the inside of a teapot body, you would press what will become the outer wall of a spherical teapot body against a hemispherical curve, and it promotes an even and consistent curve. I felt as if I needed to see a few images of this to really understand what I was looking at, that this wasn't filled with slurry or anything.

Zongjun, what is a fully hand built Yixing teapot?

[00:01:57] Zongjun Li: Nowadays, if you go to a lot of these merchants or online TikTok teapot-selling streamers, frequently you can hear these terms about quan shou gong hu (全手工壶) and ban shou gong hu (半手工壶), which can be translated as fully hand built teapot and half hand built teapot.

So, the major criteria between a quan shou gong (全手工) and ban shou gong (半手工) is basically shape guide. For a fully hand built teapot, theoretically, you are not supposed to use any shape guide or any aided tool to construct the teapot. It's purely by the teapot artist technique to achieve such shape.

Whereas ban shou gong hu (半手工壶), you can have shape guide or sometimes different components of the teapot being made from different studios and then finally assembled together at the end, which is referred to as ban shou gong hu (半手工壶).

[00:02:48] Jason Cohen: Often when writing a chapter, I find that my concluding opinion is different from my starting position, often tangentially and occasionally a full reversal of my starting opinion. While this chapter could be characterized as a defense of shape guides, I would prefer to think of it as a defense of an artist's choice of tools.

So before we get into the contents of that debate, I want to poll the editorial team. Before this chapter, what was your opinion on shape guides? Emily, why don't you go first?

[00:03:18] Emily Huang: My opinion towards shape guides, honestly, they were pretty neutral for me. It was just as if a painter would have different types of paint brushing tools. It was just a tool that Yixing artisans would use to help make their art more consistent, more usable.

[00:03:41] Jason Cohen: Did your opinion change with this chapter? It sounds like your opinion stayed fairly consistent before and after.

[00:03:47] Emily Huang: Yeah, yeah, my opinion stayed pretty consistent before and after. It was fun for me to see different types of shape guides. I knew there could be shape guides for the handle parts or the teapot itself, the hu. So it was interesting for me to see all the different other types of shape guides for the base or the lid or the other small crafting tools to polish the other parts.

[00:04:18] Jason Cohen: Pat, before this chapter, what was your opinion on shape guides?

[00:04:21] Pat Penny: Well, I'll jump back even before, before this chapter to when we were first really starting to study Yixing teapots and Chinese tea. We all had a shared teacher who really pushed that fully handmade pots were the best and half handmade or pots built with molds were not of the same quality as fully hand built pots.

And I think I kept that opinion for quite a long time, and I think a lot of our experiences, particularly our experience in Yixing, helped to challenge that. Seeing a potter that we work with pretty consistently using shape guides really got me to start thinking about the use of those guides.

And then, when I think to what I really appreciate about my own collection, it has less to do with what is fully hand built and what is half hand built and more to do with the quality of the clay and the workmanship. And so I certainly prefer a teapot that is usable. It has good consistent workmanship. The pour is of high quality.

And there are examples of fully hand built pots that are just not usable, and there are examples of pots that were built with molds, right? I'm looking at you, F1, you know, late F1, that are totally not usable. (Pat is referring here to both fully hand built and half hand built low end late F1 teapots.) So I think where I was at before reading this chapter, was that I totally was okay with artists choosing what they want to use to make the best pot available to them within their means. And I think the chapter argues for just as much. So I think I started on board and fully rode the wave with you.

[00:05:47] Jason Cohen: Well, that's interesting because it sounds like the turning point wasn't this chapter, but the turning point was our Tea Technique 2023 research trip to Yixing.

[00:05:55] Pat Penny: Correct.

[00:05:57] Jason Cohen: That makes a lot of sense. And so seeing it there and seeing the artistry and the difference between, or the lack of difference, perhaps, between fully hand built and half hand built was a, to use an apropos term at the moment, a radicalizing moment for you that

[00:06:11] Pat Penny: radically disrupted my viewpoint.

[00:06:13] Jason Cohen: Zongjun, same question to you.

[00:06:15] Zongjun Li: My point of conversion was pretty similar to Pat. For shape guide, it was really about the implication of this thing to users, like the general public opinion is that it's related to mass production, it's related to less craftsmanship, more of efficiency over quality.

But it was really seeing how shape guide being used so ubiquitously in Yixing by artists or craftsmen in every tiers that we started to realize, okay, this is probably closer to a tool versus some kind of aid to increase production especially nowadays.

So, my opinion definitely changed after seeing all of these. Fully hand built teapots is still more expensive, but in terms of quality, is it necessarily better especially in a utilitarian way, like it's better for brewing tea? I don't necessarily agree on that. But in terms of price, in terms of marketing, certainly a fully hand built teapot is generally sold at a much more expensive price tier.

[00:07:22] Pat Penny: I think I would certainly prefer a potter who uses extremely high quality clay and uses a shape guide to a potter who focuses less on the quality of the clay, but does a fully hand built pot.

[00:07:36] Zongjun Li: Yeah, certainly.

[00:07:37] Jason Cohen: Does this go back to the debate on the two schools or the two non overlapping groups of artists within Yixing, the tea focused artisans versus the ceramic, sculptural focused artisans?

[00:07:51] Pat Penny: I think it touches on that a little. At least in our experience, the sculptural and ceramic focused artists were not as interested in the base material, the quality of the clay, particularly because the clay was not interacting with a medium that they were consuming. But certainly, the visual and aesthetic appearance was more important to them and how they worked with it, what they used their hands to shape it into versus many of the artists we worked with and craftsmen we worked with who really were thinking a lot more about how their end product would interact in our art medium.

[00:08:23] Zongjun Li: Yeah, certainly. It's not only a difference between these two groups of artists but also a difference between the consumers, right? They have different preference. They have a different need of buying these teapots. That's why these artists produce these teapots to suffice different consumers.

For fully hand built teapots, probably they are more into the design, the aesthetics of the teapot itself versus tea drinkers like us will probably put more attention on the clay and the utility, like if it's the chu shui (出水), like the flow rate is consistent if you can use that to produce good results with your tea collection.

I think the end goal is totally different.

[00:09:05] Pat Penny: You can tell we all worked in the food and beverage industry because we just go right to who's the consumer. I know who's making the pie, but who's the end user?

[00:09:15] Jason Cohen: I enjoyed the idea that you proposed, Pat, that it's partially also about the utility for yielding something that you're going to be consuming, where the artists generally may not be so concerned with colorizers or texturizing agents because they're not consuming tea brewed in these teapots, or if so, they're not consuming it in nearly the quantity that tea focused Yixing artisans are, that we are.

[00:09:38] Pat Penny: And often what they're producing is not a teapot, right? Often it could be other materials made out of Yixing clay, that are not designed to interact with a consumable product like liquid.

[00:09:49] Jason Cohen: I think more people should taste their sculptures. We could, we could taste a Giorgio Morandi sculpture.

We could taste

[00:09:55] Pat Penny: That is a great argument. You had shared an article with me that more people need to touch sculptures, that they're made and meant to be touched. And I think here we need to bridge the next logical gap, which is sculptures are made to be tasted.

[00:10:06] Zongjun Li: I would like to have a Michelangelo cha chong (茶宠) sitting on my chaxi (茶洗).

[00:10:13] Pat Penny: You let it drink tea and then you also lick it.

[00:10:16] Zongjun Li: Yeah.

[00:10:17] Pat Penny: Moving on from that.

[00:10:19] Jason Cohen: There is no moving on from that. Now we will spend the rest of this podcast contemplating on a Michelangelo

[00:10:27] Pat Penny: Book Three, Licking Cha Chongs (茶宠).

[00:10:31] Zongjun Li: Very esoteric.

[00:10:33] Jason Cohen: Like Pat and Zongjun, partially before this chapter, certainly before the tea technique research trip, I would have said that fully hand built wares are superior in some way, artistry at least, versus wares made with shape guides versus half handmade. I have a strong dispreference for the term fully handmade versus half handmade because there's no tooling or machines involved in the construction and the use of shape guides and Yixing teapots with shape guides and so after our tea technique research trip and after this chapter, I really no longer hold that idea that half hand made exhibit lesser artistry to be true.

In fact, it's often that those are the more usable wares.

So in my conception, this chapter focuses on what tools are accepted by the patrons of the art form. I write, when a tool transgresses the constraints or confounds the ideals of an art form, the value of an art product produced using the tool is reduced. Many collectors and practitioners obviously feel that shape guides transgress the constraint of the Yixing art form.

They sell at a price discount to fully hand built wares. They're often used in comparison to the works of master artisans. They're often referred to as the mass market of Yixing. And so my question is, if shape guides are an unacceptable tool, then why do we accept the other tools of Yixing? What is the separating ideal that these promoters of fully hand-built wares are attempting to imbue on the patrons of this art form?

[00:12:11] Zongjun Li: Yeah, I think that's exactly what I've been contemplating upon because what exactly do you draw the line between a tool versus a shape guide? Like a Mingzhen (明针) tool versus a shape guide, they both achieve the same end goal, right? You want a more polished, more smoother surface.

For a shape guide, you want a more geometrically aligned shape. There's no essential difference between the nature of these tools. You can call a shape guide a tool by the end of the day, really.

And your argument about shape guide not being really a machine, it's still hand built. You still need to use your hand to guide the shapes to construct the teapot. It's not like a automatic machine that just start producing teapot by itself.

[00:13:01] Pat Penny: I think this is funny because I do think we draw a line somewhere, and I do think that line is slurry molds. I think we all have a negative bias against slurry molds.

So while we certainly say that, yes, using tools is fine, and to the degree that you use certain tools, it's okay. At the same time, I think we all have tools in our head that we don't think are okay.

[00:13:17] Zongjun Li: Yeah, sure, but slurry changed the nature, right? Like, it's no longer a common Yixing material for people to use back in the days.

It's a totally new format. Versus for shape guides, it's still like Yixing clays that you will be using for fully hand built teapots too. Like the nature doesn't change.

[00:13:35] Jason Cohen: That's perfect. We found our first separating ideal. Right? You first refused the premise of the question, Zongjun, and said you know, all tools are tools.

What, what is the dividing line? Pat points out slurry mold. And you point out that slurry molds change the nature of the clay. It turns this clay, which is where all of the properties of the wares and all of the, the lore of Yixing and all of our use and care about Yixing come from, and you say, well, it destroys that, and it turns it into a different material by turning it into slurry.

It destroys the nature of the material. So we have a dividing line, right? Whatever tools we use have to preserve the original nature of the material. Can we go further? Pat, can you continue to play devil's advocate? Can we pull this even further back? Can we use a bandsaw on Yixing? What are other ideals that we can argue for?

[00:14:21] Pat Penny: Well, I mentally jumped to a totally different space. I've been reading too much sci fi, which I think I'm reading one of your recommendations right now, Jason, but I skipped to we as Chinese tea ceremony practitioners, we help to galvanize some climate active activity.

We save the world. It's 2100. We're not facing global warming anymore because us as a group, we all solved that. What does Yixing construction look like? So I'm imagining fully automated, like 3D printed Yixing teapots using high quality Yixing material. But you have a machine basically doing all the AutoCAD, putting it all together.

If the Yixing material, if the clay is still high quality clay, not put into a slurry, but it's somehow workable by machine, is, is that still a Yixing teapot? Is that half hand built? What is that?

[00:15:11] Zongjun Li: Fully hand built by robots.

[00:15:13] Pat Penny: Perfect. Perfectly built. No inconsistency. The pour is amazing. Do we want to use that?

[00:15:19] Jason Cohen: I, for one, welcome our new robot overlords, but I will say nothing bad on this recording for, for the future.

[00:15:26] Zongjun Li: Would you buy one, Emily?

[00:15:29] Emily Huang: Yeah, the whole conversation is super interesting. And the whole time I was just thinking, how come I didn't have a changing view throughout this chapter. How come I thought it was so natural to have tools like shape guides? And I guess it's super natural for us to find a way to help us make things better. Machinery, the industrial revolutions, all that, we're always striving for making new things, innovations to help us get our work done in a more efficient way, in more faster way. And does that make our work quality not good enough? So, yeah, so somehow I felt like shape guide was just a very natural product of human history.

[00:16:16] Zongjun Li: You mentioned about machinery. There are a lot of machinery being used nowadays in Yixing. Not just in building teapots, but also refining clay, for example, lianni (炼泥), you have a refining machine that extrude all these chunks of Yixing clay from aged ores. Does it make the clay worse versus the traditional way to refining Yixing ore into clay using like tree trunks or sticks, purely hand refinement?

So sometimes, you know, machinery is somehow acceptable and sometimes it's not.

[00:16:52] Pat Penny: I think this is a tension we've had as we've discussed throughout the book, even when we were looking at clay processing. And I think it's a tension that existed in the previous book, too, just as we talk about tea ceremony and tea as a praxis. I think there's always that pull to history, because even the very early antecedents of this praxis, Lu Yu, looks to earlier examples to ground the practice in a deeper and richer history and a more culturally appropriate history.

And I think we do the same today. Even as we look to the future and we innovate with new equipment, new machinery, we still always romanticize the past and the tradition. And we try and somehow juxtapose the two and make it make sense in our heads.

[00:17:34] Jason Cohen: I entirely agree. I think that's great. I want to return to what you were saying, Pat, because I think that the sci fi bent, whether or not we would accept a perfectly 3D printed, let's use as an example, teapot, and when I think of that question, and I think of my preferences today, I think that if you'd asked, do you want this perfect 3D printed silver teapot? I think I would say yes. I don't think I would have any hesitation or concern about artistry if I was purchasing a perfectly beautifully made silver teapot. And as I think about that I'm reminded that in fact some of the Japanese silver teapots with ornate dragon designs and other motifs on them are actually originally modeled in CAD software. And not a 3D printer, but a computerized CNC machine perfectly cuts out those motifs and designs. And so we already do accept that many of these things are not going to be entirely handmade.

And I'll add one more thought to that. Recently there was an interview, a video interview with a group of stone masons who are using CNC machines to cut out what were originally handmade pieces of churches. And over time, churches in the contemporary period have gotten less and less ornate because stone masons have a required skill level, are no longer very common, and because it's become too expensive for many churches to put up very ornate stonework masonry on the outside. And so this one company here in the United States is now using CNC machines to cut out giant stone blocks, Corinthian pillars, and other gargoyles and other things that line historical looking churches, and they're making them new, and they're making them for churches at a price that they could afford, and suddenly we now have this new beauty in the world, and these churches are once again more magnificent than they were previously.

And so the question is, is, is this a good thing? And when you watch this interview, they say well, this is a great thing. You know, this was a dying art form. This is something that we've brought back. And yes, we have to retrain. We're now doing a lot of our design work in CAD and computers. But it's our designs. We are artists still. And using that to bring beauty to the world. I'll let you respond to that and then I'll continue on your, your sci fi kick.

[00:19:56] Pat Penny: Well, Jason, we have often commissioned teapots, you're working with a potter on specific firing and ideas that we want to do, and Zongjun just the other day sent us his CAD mockup, right?

So we do currently have our Yixing teapot designs being done in CAD. So I, I think that there's definitely something to how this art form has evolved and has taken on technology and innovation. I personally, as I think about the future and my perfect teapots being made in the year 2100 when hopefully I'm still alive and I'm on my second or third rejuvenation, you know, I've been brought back to a young 20, 25 year old state and I'm just sitting on my pu'er collection from the early 2000s.

Yeah, I think I will certainly enjoy using a Yixing teapot that has had the micropore structure perfectly constructed to accentuate the deep, rich flavor and aromas of the pu'er teas that I'm going to be brewing. So I look forward to it.

[00:20:47] Jason Cohen: I know exactly what book you're reading. Zongjun, you look non nonplussed.

[00:20:50] Zongjun Li: I was just thinking about the modern masonry story that you just brought up cause the utility for those things are still different from teapots, right? Like, the utility for the masonry works are purely decorations versus teapots, you have an application utility.

[00:21:08] Pat Penny: Because we're not licking them at the moment.

[00:21:10] Zongjun Li: We're not licking them.

[00:21:11] Jason Cohen: I thought we just agreed we were changing that.

[00:21:14] Zongjun Li: So I don't know. Craftsmanship certainly, I would say, played a less role. It's more about your imagery, creativity that you can design and the renderation, used to be hand, now it's machine cutting but I would argue that you can still call that a piece of art because the design, it's still designed by artist.

[00:21:35] Pat Penny: I think just tying on to what you were saying, Zongjun. As we think about tea, I think tea as a practice and the ancillary art forms like Yixing engage more senses than something like sculpture. As we're drinking tea, we are smelling it, we are tasting it, we are touching the Yixing teapot, we're hearing the clay, the lid as we close it on the body.

And for a sculpture, usually visuals, your sense of sight is the only interaction you have with that form of art. So I think there really is something to how innovation and the changing forms of design might impact an art form that has different degrees of multi sensorial interaction.

[00:22:19] Jason Cohen: So now I want to take what you were saying before even further, so you said 2100, we're going to have the ability for machines to build whatever we want them to build. I have two contentions there. Anytime that there is technological development that changes what counts as craftsmanship and artisanry, you see countervailing social forces that bring new preferences and new limitations on art forms to bare. And so right now we see this in the visual arts. We have Midjourney and Dali and other AI image generation. And so suddenly we're seeing, well, it's not enough to be pretty. It's not enough to be pixel perfect, right? There, there's now this countervailing social force that's talking more about human arts, human crafts.

And so, part of the idea is in 2100, if we have that ability, will it be accepted, or will this become a social limitation versus a physical limitation?

[00:23:21] Pat Penny: I think that's a really great thought exercise. I do think that there will be a social limitation because even though now, here, in this time, we say we would be excited about these perfect machine built teapots, as we think about our relationships with potters and the people we work with, I have a feeling that if we were all there at this time in 75 years from now, we'd probably be on the opposing side saying that there's a human touch that is necessary in these art forms and that we need to keep this human element of it alive and well and keep the tradition going, just as we say for Chinese tea ceremony in the modern age. So it is interesting to put that lens on it because it dampened my excitement just a little bit.

[00:24:01] Zongjun Li: That's an interesting argument. There's always a social capital built in into teapots and all the tools that we use and also tea that we purchase throughout. It's not just the utility value that the teapot can bring you, but also the way we can socialize with the surroundings and also the way we socialize with the tea drinking community. It's a bridge, it's a gateway for us to maintain our social nature. But if we cut it off and make it purely machinery, then who are we talking to?

[00:24:34] Jason Cohen: That's why the Butlerian Jihad will start in Yixing.

[00:24:38] Pat Penny: I wasn't reading Dune. You know I wasn't reading Dune, although I have.

 I was gonna say that it will be great for all the tea hermits. So all the perfect machine built teapots will be wonderful for the tea hermits. They can just talk about which unit they're having build their teapots online. They won't see each other, they won't drink with each other, it'll all be fine.

[00:24:55] Jason Cohen: The last thing I want to talk about in 2100 is the best Yixing mine on Mars. Certainly shaft mine number four, martian hongni.

High iron content.

[00:25:07] Zongjun Li: Very high iron content.

[00:25:09] Pat Penny: That Mars red clay is going to be something special.

I'm looking forward to Pluto, like ice Yixing.

[00:25:16] Zongjun Li: I'm more conservative. A moon jade Yixing would suffice my need.

[00:25:21] Jason Cohen: We try to hold it together for the next question. Throughout this chapter, I argue that these tools were developed and integrated into the praxis of Yixing because they met the preferences of the artform's patrons. The Chinese literati aesthetic developed a preference for precision and perfection, valuing wares of symmetry and refined details.

I contrast this with other art forms that have developed their own aesthetic preferences, including Chanoyu's wabi. Can you explain the aesthetic valuation of wabi and why the ceramic arts valued by chanoyu never adopted tools of refinement, including molds?

[00:25:56] Pat Penny: So wabi is this aesthetic that really took hold particularly around Chanoyu practitioners in the 15 and 1600s and it's this idea of a cold and withered aesthetic. So for us in the U.S. we'd usually use terms like rustic or unrefined, although wabi has a positive, semi positive connotation to describe these kind of wares.

So often we see it with Japanese tea bowls, like raku tea bowls where they are imperfect in nature. So there might be some roughness to its shape, and it has not been polished to the refinement that we often associate with things like Ming or Qing imperial porcelain wares with highly intricate or ornate designs.

[00:26:36] Jason Cohen: Why does wabi exist? Why is that an aesthetic preference versus the Chinese preferences for symmetry and perfection?

[00:26:46] Pat Penny: I think it goes back to what we were just talking about as some kind of ideal or new development comes around. Because wabi as an aesthetic idea, it's not really that old. We can kind of look back at its development over just a few hundred years ago. As there is this prevailing idea of refinement, there's likely to be a countervailing idea or ideal. I think that's exactly what we see with wabi. So prior to that in Japan for their developing tea ceremony, which was modeled off of Song Dynasty Chinese tea ceremony, the Song Dynasty tea performance would really be pretty ornate, elaborate, and the wares were also highly refined.

And so I think as that was incorporated in Japan, mostly in their imperial family and slowly spreading out over tradesmen who had influence and wealth there had to, at some point, be somebody who wanted to differentiate their practice from the prevailing practice. And I think that's exactly what we see with the development of the wabi aesthetic. There's this gaudy aesthetic that is happening at high levels within the court, and what my practice represents something different, and I need some kind of visual representation of why it's different.

[00:27:54] Jason Cohen: That's entirely correct, and it goes even further and longer than that with the importation of Chinese wares with their perfect finish and symmetry into Japan, being called tongdai, being highly expensive and highly prized, and then the countervailing force saying, actually, we're going to use local production, we're going to use rustic or wabi local ceramics that are very purposely less refined, that are very purposely blemished, that blend with the ideals promoted by Chanoyu.

And so, we partially answered the question, but the other side of the question is why then wasn't there yet again a countervailing force? Why didn't it go from China production and importation to Japan to refinement within Japan? Or did it? Is raku more refined now than it was then? Are we using molds and polishes or colorizers or mingzhen (明针) in the production of Raku?

[00:28:55] Pat Penny: As I think about it, the word refinement may take on a different connotation when we discuss Raku, right? Because within Raku, bowl development has a practice. I'm sure that the Raku masters believe that they have refined the art form, because in their view of what is the ideal Raku bowl, I'm sure over time it has changed and in their opinion it has been perfected.

 Or it's possible that some of them think that Chojiro, like Raku the First, made the best bowls. I don't really know, but I think the idea of refined, these elaborate and ornate Song and Ming and Qing porcelains, I think the idea of refinement there and the idea of what is refined within an art form are two different things.

[00:29:35] Zongjun Li: I certainly agree. The underlying criteria or the requirement of refinement is ultimately different between the Chinese and the Japanese. And also going back to your question, asking why hasn't this aesthetic made its way back to China and get accepted by the literatis?

The reason why Raku, or this kind of very unrefined wares exist is because of the idea of wabi sabi, the idea of appreciation of imperfection. It's a physical epitome of such idea. It's a renderation of the idea in the physical world. Essentially this idea never made its way back to China.

 Or partially, because nowadays in China or close to late Qing, early R.O.C., people starting to appreciate this what they call zhuo (拙), or a rough translation would be like clumsy or crude. It's almost like a humble bragging of someone's creation. They like things to be slightly imperfect to kind of show rooms of improvement in the future or put themselves in a more humble position.

 But that's not really a appreciation of such precision, right? Like the ultimate idea is still different. We see gardenery being rendered in such idea. For example the famous garden zhuo zheng yuan (拙政园) in Suzhou. It's kind of a representation of such idea.

It's closer to a naturalism presentation versus back in the days, it's more about geometrical perfection. It's more about beautiful alignment of vegetations and construction of the pagodas or the buildings in the garden. So there are similar things exist in both cultures, but ultimately the underlying idea is still different.

 Throughout the dynastic period, all the literatis never adopt the idea to want to appreciate imperfection whereas in Japan that's basically the foundation of wabi sabi.

[00:31:32] Jason Cohen: Is this a difference between Confucianism and Shintoism?

[00:31:36] Zongjun Li: I don't know.

[00:31:38] Pat Penny: I think there is definitely some degree of nationalism worked up into this contrast between the idea of wabi and the refinement that we might see in some Chinese wares. Certainly that is part of what originally was the development of wabi, right? And using things like mitate, materials you had on hand that weren't meant for tea ceremony, but were rustic and of Japanese nature and were incorporated into tea ceremony. So I think there's certainly some nationalism at play. But I do think that to some degree in the modern practice, wabi has worked its way into the Chinese tea practice as well, maybe not particularly among all practitioners, but the idea of mitate, that incorporation of wares that were not meant specifically for tea ceremonies certainly alive and well in those who are kind of chashi aligned.

And then I think those who are in more of the spiritual realm of tea practice often seem to love the incorporation of more wabi centered wares.

[00:32:33] Emily Huang: Japan's very known for their craftsmanship. It is something that is more appreciated by others. They tend to be more proud of their own artwork, regardless of what other people think, whereas Chinese at that time, a lot of the Yixing teapots or ceramics were probably made to get the best one so that they can show it off to the emperor. Could this have been a factor in play here?

[00:33:02] Zongjun Li: Inconsistency is consistency for wabi sabi. I think that's a very core value that people appreciate in Japan.

And whereas in China, I don't think, at least in the dynastic period, that never made its way into the literati community. Nowadays, you certainly see a lot of these Japanese aesthetic influenced wares and items in Chinese culture because of all these communications between the two countries.

 But back in the days, certainly, Japanese craftsman, at least for a very long time in Imperial China, was viewed as inferior. So, the adoption of anything from Japan, at least until Ming dynasty to Qing dynasty, never has a strong impetus coming from the literati community.

[00:33:51] Jason Cohen: I was going to comment along the same lines that you quite rightly say that perhaps the dividing ideal in Japanese wabi aesthetics is to use less tools, to use fewer tools than in the Chinese tradition. And so whereas in China it's totally fine to use calipers, knife calipers to get perfectly square cuts, and it's perfectly fine to use shape guides, according to some individuals, in Japanese aesthetic, everything is scooped and then hand shaped or hand corrected, and it leaves these fingerprints or hand marks along the surface of the ware, ridges along the surface of the ware, either subtle imperfections or quite purposeful dis symmetry. And the fact that that never returned to China, that China never developed that preference for it, perhaps is seen both as a difference in aesthetic valuation but the mutual acceptance of their own wares is certainly a difference in ideal of what tools transgress the art form.

An interesting follow on question to what you said, Zongjun, how much of it is because the literati were frequently commissioning wares? So they weren't the artists themselves, but they had an idea of what they wanted and they wanted it executed by the craftsmen or the artistan.

[00:35:15] Zongjun Li: I would certainly agree on that. Especially in Imperial China, most craftsmen except a very few ones like Shi Dabin (时大彬), really have little freedom in changing their design or their role in creating new designs is very low because all of the designs are usually commissioned by literati patrons.

So it's what the literati appreciate that driven the development of Yixing aesthetic versus probably in Japan it's more the ceramic artists themselves.

[00:35:47] Jason Cohen: Now, an important question. Do you use wabi wares in your Chinese tea practice?

[00:35:54] Zongjun Li: Me? I certainly do. Nowadays you also see a lot of these wabi influence in Chinese ceramics. For example, like a wood fire yixing, leaves these very naturalistic and crude marks, fire marks, on the surface of yixing. But back in the days, this will certainly be viewed as a flaw.

Yaobian (窑变) has a very negative connotation back in the days versus now. It's sometimes positive, like people want to have their surface of the teapot yaobian (窑变).

[00:36:24] Jason Cohen: Does it generate controversy with anyone? Do some people have a strong reaction? Do they reject the use of wabi inspired wares in your practice?

[00:36:34] Zongjun Li: I do not think so, not that I know of.

[00:36:37] Jason Cohen: Pat, same question to you.

[00:36:39] Pat Penny: Yeah, I certainly incorporate wabi inspired and influenced wares and including some that we've made ourselves, which are certainly not refined. I use a waste water bowl that I personally made and it kind of looks a little bit like crap, but it's about having something that I touched and made with my own hands on the table.

So I don't think it really drives a lot of controversy. I don't think there's too many people sitting around on the internet looking at my tea pictures going like, Oh, that was a dumb idea to put that on the chaxi (茶洗). Like I really should have used a much more refined ceramic cup.

[00:37:09] Jason Cohen: Interesting. I use some wabi wares.

 Generally, I only use wabi cups versus anything else. So if I'm not going to use a matching set of cups then sometimes I'll use wood fire cups or other wabi cups. I generally don't use wabi, I guess also excluding tea bowls but I have had a strong reaction to them. I have had people say, why are, this isn't Chinese, or why are, what's with these misshapened...

[00:37:34] Zongjun Li: maybe some purists would have a strong reaction to that, but in terms of the majority of tea drinkers nowadays, Japanese aesthetic influenced wares is I would say quite common. And it's quite widely accepted by a lot of tea drinkers.

[00:37:50] Jason Cohen: Emily, same question to you.

Do you use wabi wares in your practice? And have you noticed any pushback if so?

[00:37:59] Emily Huang: I do have some wabi cups and I have not experienced any pushback here, but I'm, I'm also in a completely different cultural setting than Jason and Pat. I feel like in the time context right now, we as a community tend to appreciate everyone in their own way. So, my choice of wares, that's a part of me, and someone would not push back and say this is not the right way or not the common way, and people are generally more acceptive and open to different styles.

Throughout the whole conversation with the wabi style, it also reminded me of another Japanese concept called kintsugi, which is the art method of using gold to fix the cracks of teawares or any wares or ceramics. And in Japan, it started with this term, just meaning the method of this fixation, but then it grew, and now it has a connotation of imperfect is okay, imperfect is fine, even though you have the cracks, but once you have the kintsugi fixed, you become even more beautiful.

And when we were all talking about the wabi sabi concept and how it was appreciated, it reminded me of the kintsugi concept that the Japanese really took on. The same method also exists in China, however I feel like it's not as appreciated as much. And I don't know why, maybe it's because they have more material to just make a new one instead of fixing an old one.

[00:39:46] Zongjun Li: It's gaining a lot of popularity in China not just kintsugi but also a staple fixing. Sometimes people would intentionally crack their wares and send it to a staple fixing or kintsugi fixing masters and have them fixed. And they have all these beautiful design of a cloud shape staple, a leaf shape staple, fish shape staple as a decoration almost to the tea ware. It's very interesting to see 'cause back in the days they are just very crude staples that people use to fix their home usage ware like I crack a pot, I send it to our local staple fixing artists, or not even artists, craftsmen, and then they piece them together. But now, it grew into a new aesthetic.

[00:40:29] Jason Cohen: My last question. Is there merit to the argument that fully hand built Yixing teapots are superior to those made with the aid of a shape guide?

[00:40:39] Emily Huang: I personally don't think so. No.

[00:40:42] Zongjun Li: Well, I would say for my preference, or my goal I would say no, either. As long as you are using good clay, you are not acid washing your clay, or you are not adding any colorations into the process, it doesn't make a difference to me.

Other than the price, maybe.

[00:41:03] Jason Cohen: It's amazing what writing a book will do to your preferences.

 It's an interesting change.

[00:41:09] Zongjun Li: Certainly.

[00:41:11] Jason Cohen: Well, everyone, thank you for joining us in this edition of Tea Technique Editorial Conversations. Please join us again for our next conversation, Making a Yixing Teapot.